It should come as no surprise to avid readers of the site that Allston Pudding is always rooting for Horse Jumper Of Love. The Boston slowcore trio has been an going concern on these digital pages since their early days playing virtually any Jamaica Plain or Allston basement that would have them, and their gradual journey towards indie rock mainstays feels like win for the community as a whole. Horse Jumper’s latest mini-album Heartbreak Rules is something of a new flavor for the band, folding in more acoustic guitars and shaving away some of the noise in favor of an approach that hues closer to folk rock than ever before. Recorded by just fronter Dimitri Giannopoulos and Brad Krieger of Big Nice (who else?) at a small house up in the Catskills, Heartbreak is a bold step forward for Horse Jumper, and also among the finest records you’ll hear in 2023.

 

We caught up with Giannopoulos from the road in Phoenix to talk about Heartbreak Rules, life, love, and the pursuit of artistic integrity as Horse Jumper Of Love made their way through the southwest on a full US tour. Listen along to the new record while you read more below.

Horse Jumper Of Love: So far, the shows have been pretty good. The tour started in Seattle so we had already driven for five days from Boston, and naturally we were a little tired when we got there. But once you get back into the swing of touring it’s alright. Each band, like us, LSD, and Panchiko all seem to have like a cult-y following. so the shows are packed, like, right when doors open, and everyone’s there to see everyone, which is cool. I love a touring package like that. Plus the fans are definitely on the younger side, which is cool, so even if someone hasn’t heard of us or LSD, they’re more receptive to it, they’re far more perceptive to listening to new shit.

 

AP: Have you been playing a lot of Heartbreak Rules on these dates? 

 

HJOL: We’ve been trying to do a good mix. The first half of the set is the new record. We’re playing the title track and “Snake Eyes” because that one’s working out in a live setting. We’re even doing one brand new song that’s not on Heartbreak Rules, and we’re just opening up with it. We’re kind of learning it as a band so we can go in and record it once we get off the road. The second half is mostly off the self-titled and So Divine.

 

AP: What’s the reception been like to the new stuff?

 

 

AP: Do the new songs feel any different with the full trio versus solo? What differentiates them?

 

HJOL: It’s definitely a lot different. The title track is I think a pretty gentle song, but with drums and bass and the second guitar on it, it really feels a little more full, and sort of like a rock song, but still pretty soft. And then “Snake Eyes”, has been feeling more like a straightforward indie rock song. So everything is getting a little removed from how I intended the songs, but I kind of like that in the live setting. I think the live experience should be different from the recorded experience.

 

AP: I was just gonna say, do you find that that happens a lot with with music when you take it on the road? Do you feel like the songs change a lot?

 

HJOL: I think the songs just have a natural evolution, especially with the older stuff, because I feel like I’ve stylistically changed as a guitar player. So in that way, the songs feel pretty different,  and I really enjoy that. You know, we’re not just trying to play exactly how the recording sounds like, because to me, that would be boring. I mean, if you wanna listen to a band that sounds exactly like a recording, then, you know, I don’t wanna be annoying about this, but you can just listen to that. To me at least, if you want to just see a band live, that should be a wholly different experience.

 

Having Tony with us on second guitar for shows been so important with the new tracks where there are multiple guitar parts, but it initially was a challenge with the old trio stuff. It was a little hard to figure out “well, what’s Tony gonna do on these tracks?” since those songs were written with one guitar in mind. But in the end, we kind of just figured out a way for him to double me, and it really makes sense, and I feel like it adds a lot of layering to everything. So I’m happy with the way we’re sounding. 

 

AP: When did you start writing for Heartbreak Rules? What was inspiring you then?

 

HJOL: I wanna say I started writing it probably right in the beginning of COVID during the first few months of lockdown. I had more time to write since we weren’t touring all the time, and I went to record it in the summer of  2021 in the Catskills. It felt like a transitional time for me, and I was kind of forcing myself to write more solo stuff, which I really am always writing, but it usually just ends up being Horse Jumper stuff in the end. That’s basically still what happened with this batch. The idea was to experiment and let go and just record. I kept calling in my solo album for a while, as if I was gonna release it under another name. But then I just like the way it sounded so much, and I thought I would just reach a better audience under the Horse Jumper banner. I don’t know specifically what I was inspired by.

 

Well, “Queenie’s Necklace” is one where I can directly trace what it was inspired by, and it was from my time being a dog walker. One of my dogs was named Queen, and the owners had a collar for her and when I would go see her I’d call it her necklace and put it on her. Most of the rest is also just inspired by my usual day-to-day bullshit, like my job, and my relationships, and all that.

 

AP: Obviously Heartbreak Rules is a bit of a departure for the band. Was it a conscious thing to kind of pull apart the songs a bit and remove some of the noise and record solo or just a reflection of how the songs were turning out? What drew you to these quieter motifs?

 

HJOL: I think it’s a mix of both. Like, I was definitely thinking about it a little bit, but it just seemed like that’s what the songs needed. We put the tracks down, and I was like, “it doesn’t need anything else.” I mean, honest to God, like, not to sound like a cliche, but I was really inspired by Elliot Smith’s Either/Or with the guitar tones and the drums and stuff. I was trying to channel that vibe because you know, I’m fucking huge Elliot Smith stan. I also definitely wanted a break from the distortion. 

 

I’ve been saying lately that my whole my whole statement behind Horse Jumper Of Love is to try to bring the human element into music and live performance, and I just wanna keep it pretty raw. I never want too many studio tricks or anything like that, and I think this record was just an extension of that. I really wanted to make sure that the vocals and the lyrics were the main focus of this release, too. I think in the past, I felt really shy about my lyrics and my vocal delivery, but this time I wanted them really in the front as the main focus. I also double the vocals on a lot of the tracks and I think that gave me a sort of layer of comfort. A lot of the songs were first takes too, and while I don’t necessarily view these tracks as minimal, there definitely was a concerted effort to keep it simple. There was version where we kept this just as acoustic guitar and singing, but then I just got too excited.

 

AP: Did recording in the Catskills have an effect on the songs or how you arranged them? 

 

HJOL: Definitely. I mean at least on the the laid-back vibe and energy in the sense that Brad and I didn’t start recording every day until, like, 6:00 p.m. Sometimes we would just kind of stay up all night drinking and wake up late, cook a huge meal and not get around to recording until we felt like it. There wasn’t any sort schedule so it all felt very natural. The flow was really good, and I think we were just kind of locked in together in our head space. I guess that wasn’t specifically influenced by the Catskills itself, but I definitely think it put me in a more relaxed space. It got to be a little bit like a vacation for sure. 

 

Also, the sleepy little town we were in was apparently where Rip Van Winkle was from? So he was their mascot, the guy who fell asleep for a hundred years. We walked into the town and there’s just all this graffiti and street art of this little guy sleeping, and I was like “what the fuck is up with this?” He was just everywhere, and then when we asked someone they were like “oh yeah that’s Rip Van Winkle, you know he’s from this town.” 

 

AP: You use grounded language across Heartbreak Rules than ever before too. Lots of first or second person narrative, less cyclical ambiguity. Was that a conscious choice to go along with the more refined playing? 

 

HJOL: I don’t think it was conscious. I just think it was what was natural to write at the time. Whatever subject matter I was addressing it just came out that way. But yeah, I’ve read some shit on the internet where someone’s like “Horse Jumper lyrics don’t make any sense”. Well, you know, they makes sense to me, so fuck you. I’m kidding, but obviously the way I write is relatable to at least a few people.

 

AP: I mean, there’s something to be said about using messier imagery to talk about things that are complex and convoluted. It makes sense to kind of use that kind of language to probe the absurdity of life.

 

HJOL: That’s all I think about, it’s the main reason I make music. I’m just trying to make some kind of sense of the absurdity of existence, and that’s as far as I can get with that sort of thinking. I have written lyrics in that shape in the past because I felt like I have to, Music is
pretty spiritual for me, it’s like meditation in that it helps me calm down and feel less anxiety and stress. When I write a song or play guitar, it’s one of the few things that make me feel totally like myself. I think this album itself was me trying get deeper into that feeling, and I guess that’s why it’s more acoustic and more open lyrically. I’m just trying to get closer to how it feels in my bedroom when I’m playing guitar.

 

AP: We’ve gotten music videos from a few Natural Part songs and now both Heartbreak Rules singles, is tying a visual aesthetic to your records something you consider?

 

HJOL: I definitely wanna try to focus on music videos specifically, I think they are so important. I really like the video for “Singing By The Sink” that my friend Rhys made. He just pitched this insane idea to me like “I’m gonna go down to a Civil War reenactment and film it.” At first I wasn’t sure how it was gonna work, but he did it, and what a great job. I definitely wanna try to have cool videos, cool photos, cool merch designs, just cool shit in general. I think anyone who’s in a band would be lying if they said like it’s just all about the music because it’s not just about the songs themselves, it’s about the whole experience. If anything, that adds to the music, too.

AP: Is there something in particular that you’re sort of looking for when it comes to visuals and collaborators?

HJOL: I definitely have a feeling when I meet someone, and there’s a certain style or aesthetic that lines up with what I like and what makes sense with the Horse Jumper thing. I don’t really know how to describe that thing exactly, it’s more like a feeling and it ties into the human element bit I was talking about. I’m happy it seems to make sense to other people too, but ultimately I can’t care too much about reception because this is my thing, this is my craft and I’m ultimately gonna do it my way.

 

AP: The tour documentary Just Kidding also recently came out on youtube, what was that experience like? Do you feel like it accurately portrayed what your road life is like, and if so how?

 

HJOL: I kind of loved it, it was an awesome experience. Ben, the guy directed it is a friend of ours, so it was just like us hanging out with him only he had a camera, and he was never being weird about it. He was never sneaking up on us doing stupid shit. It was more like  “I’m gonna ask you guys a few questions.” But yeah, it just showed us out there on the road, eating or stopping at a gas station, the boring shit that happens on tour. I wanted people to see a little glimpse of what this life is really like and what it takes to be a touring musician because it’s an absolutely insane thing. It’s crazy to be on the road for months at a time, and I feel like he captured that pretty well. Ben was only there for the first week and then he flew home before meeting up with us again on the East Coast at the end of the tour. So there’s a mixing of footage of us from when we’re starting tour and we’re really excited and having a lot of fun, and then there’s us at the end just being kind of exhausted. I really thought it was a great idea for him to do that, and he did the Wednesday/TAGABOW documentary before, which was awesome, and I just loved it. I used to love watching things like that from bands I admired when I was younger, any sort of footage of them as normal people, and I wanted him to do that for us. A lot of times we’ll go to shows and the fans treat you like you’re really special to them, sometimes they like idolize you in a way, and that’s cool and all, but I wanna be seen as normal. We’re basically just guys trying to work.

 

Tour ultimately is lots of driving, lots of ups and downs, lots of, you know, going to gas stations and just chilling on the side of the road for an hour when you just can’t do it anymore. When I tell that to my parents or other people who don’t necessarily understand everything about what I do, they’re kinda shocked. You’re trying to explain how you have to play a show and then drive eight hours and be in another city the next day and they just can’t even imagine the level of insanity it takes to rush through long drives and then go perform after that. I guess part of it too is sort of like having ammo in my own selfish way for any bad performances I’ve given. Now I have proof of just how tiring this lifestyle is. Go watch this documentary and you’ll get it.

 

AP: There’s plenty of problems with “music journalism” as whole, but at its best our function is to have a sort of give and take with artists to facilitate further thought on what is you’re creating and why you’re creating it.

 

HJOL: Yeah, any night after a show I can go on Instagram and watch someone take a video of our performance and it’s real but idealized, you know? The doc instead highlighted the human parts of touring, because the performance doesn’t always feel the most human. They call it performing for a reason: you’re separating from yourself and you’re literally just putting on a show and entertaining people. It’s almost dissociative in a way. So it was cool to get a window into seeing myself and my bandmates doing the other parts of it, the driving eight hours to play music for forty five minutes, the repetitive nature of it every day.

 

Time is such a crazy thing out there, some nights the set feels like three hours, but others it goes by in an instant. I also talked about wanting to feel present more, and how there’s a lot of the times I don’t feel that way on tour. It comes from the stress of being my own tour manager and having to deal with the business side of it, and of being my own merch person, or my own manager. It gets to be too much sometimes. I was drinking really heavily before to escape from those pressures, and watching the documentary helped me try to be more present for this tour that we’re on right now, which I decided to do sober. That has changed everything for me, truly. Ultimately, the documentary helped me reflect on myself and I feel really lucky as a result. You know, most people don’t have the opportunity to have someone go film them in really personal moments like that.

 

AP: I love the line in “Heartbreak Rules” about being “a walking guy.” Is that a meaningful reference to Community College?

 

HJOL: Yes, of course! I was like, “John can I use this word?”

 

AP: Do you see both projects as being in conversation with each other?

 

HJOL: Absolutely, it’s just an outgrowth of how close John and I are. In fact all three of us influence each other so much. I mean, we’ve been doing this forever, and I’ve been stealing shit from John forever. “Bagel Breath” from the self-titled for instance: John had a Community College song, “Martyr For A Common Cause” and when he first showed me that song I kept thinking the line was bagel breath, but no it turns out he was saying bagel bread. I was like “oh, John, I thought you were saying bagel breath this whole time. Can I use that instead?” That’s just how we roll, and that’s how I think music is meant to be to is shared. You should be influenced by the people you’re playing with, that’s important to me. I see it like folk music.

 

AP: That’s your vibe as a whole, you’re very “band as a gang.” That’s not how every group is, but Horse Jumper seems to very consciously present as a full unit in every sense of the word.

 

HJOL: We’re just really close, that’s why we’ve been doing it together for twelve years. Jamie, John, and I have known each other since we were like 16. Well, Jamie was 14, I was 16, and John was 17 when we all met, and now we’re almost 30. So it’s been a long trip.

 

AP: What’s next for Horse Jumper?

 

HJOL: The usual. We should probably start another record soon, do the whole process over again. We are going to Europe in September, and that’s been a goal of mine for a long time, so it feels good to finally realize that. I guess we’re just gonna keep doing it until we can’t. I’m always in in my head about that stuff, like longevity. I’m 29 now, so I tell myself maybe I’ll give it until I’m like, 35, and then if it seems like it’s still possible to keep doing music then I’ll just reevaluate my priorities at that point. But right now I feel totally devoted and one hundred percent locked in. I think being able to continue writing plays off that too. The drive that I have to keep doing the other stuff it takes to be a working musician totally feeds off my ability to write more and vice versa. You know what I mean?

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Heartbreak Rules is out today, Friday May 19th on Run For Cover Records. Order a copy right here.